Curse

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 07, 2011, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

And being designed for the "casual player" does not necessarily mean that everyone is entitled to be able to complete every bit of content in the game.

Please show me the handbook where it says a game (in any genre) must exclude players of a lesser skill from content.

That's like saying an 17 year old with a learners permit is not allowed to use the raging CD player and sound system in his brand new car because he does not have the skill or experience behind the wheel that his Father does, or that he can even drive that brand new car in the first place.

Hanok

Xiaquin · Jan 08, 2011, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Ko

I don't support this nerf for the following:

Not everyone has time to spend doing hours and hours of tedious work on a game.

It allows everyone to enjoy farming elite areas in their own way. If it works, why is that so bad? Because you want things to be harder? If you want things to be harder, then don't use the build yourself and allow people to play the way they choose to.

Then no one that complained about Ursan should have used Ursan. See what I did there?

UnChosen · Jan 08, 2011, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

And being designed for the "casual player" does not necessarily mean that everyone is entitled to be able to complete every bit of content in the game.

Well, DwG is only used in NORMAL (Repeat: NORMAL) mode so in fact casuals are already locked out of some contents in the game...they can't complete DoA HM with DwG.

So what's the problem?

To me this is just another case of constantly changing (lowering) standards with regards to skills and elite areas. I still remember people complaining about Ursan 1-2-3 and CoP 1-2-1 saying that newbs should stick to normal mode. Guess what, those people succeeded in getting what they want, and still won't stop yapping.

/NOT signed

Del · Jan 08, 2011, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Please show me the handbook where it says a game (in any genre) must exclude players of a lesser skill from content.

That's like saying an 17 year old with a learners permit is not allowed to use the raging CD player and sound system in his brand new car because he does not have the skill or experience behind the wheel that his Father does, or that he can even drive that brand new car in the first place.

Hanok

Weak analogy. GW is more like highschool, and elite areas are like sports teams and the mathletes in highschool. Everyone's entitled to get through highschool, but not everyone is entitled to be on the mathletes or the rugby team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Then no one that complained about Ursan should have used Ursan. See what I did there?

Ursan was effective. Just about everywhere. DwG is barely mediocre in DoA, and not used anywhere else.

Xenomortis · Jan 08, 2011, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Weak analogy. GW is more like highschool, and elite areas are like sports teams and the mathletes in highschool. Everyone's entitled to get through highschool, but not everyone is entitled to be on the mathletes or the rugby team.

Those things are competitive - completing the DoA is not.
Whilst better, your analogy is more akin to getting into top GvG teams.
Completing the DoA is more like getting good grades. If everyone was getting As (or whatever it is in Highschool), then clearly something is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Well, DwG is only used in NORMAL (Repeat: NORMAL) mode so in fact casuals are already locked out of some contents in the game...they can't complete DoA HM with DwG.

It can be used in Hardmode. Mantra of Frost and Winter (on top of what is already a ton of defense) should be enough to prop up the DwG spikers anywhere.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 08, 2011, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Weak analogy. GW is more like highschool, and elite areas are like sports teams and the mathletes in highschool. Everyone's entitled to get through highschool, but not everyone is entitled to be on the mathletes or the rugby team.

But they are not prevented from using/participating in those things in their own way. They may not be a member of the football team, yet they can still play the same game on the same field using the same rules if they so desire. The game they play is just not on the same level of their more athletic counterparts.

It is unfortunate that the MMO genre has developed the mindset of exclusivity when its RPG forebears were created to allow players to pick and choose the level of challenge they received in order to allow them to complete all of the content, regardless of skill. Again, when we talk GW, we are talking about breaking the mold - a mainstream MMO that had no monthly fee; a free MMO that (while it now incorporates micro-transactions), does not micro-transaction you to death (nor require them to access any playable content); an MMO that was designed to appeal to the casual distinctly non-MMO playerbase; An MMO that can also be played as a single-player game.

GW may not be perfect, but it has been one damn good game and one that has bucked the trend time and again. I'm not a big multi-player gamer, but GW is the only one I have experienced that actually also created more than one level of difficulty for playing the game, in the vein of the single-player games of old. In this regard, there is no reason why GW can't buck the trend again by allowing further refinement to the difficulty level and allow players of lesser skill to experience and complete harder and Elite areas of the game.

Hanok

Xiaquin · Jan 08, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Ursan was effective. Just about everywhere. DwG is barely mediocre in DoA, and not used anywhere else.

The logic was "let people play how they want to". Not "unless it's effective everywhere". Beyond that, it's the same excuse again: it's not as bad. So it is a problem, it's just not big enough for people to care about until it's so bad it can't be ignored. What's ironic is that's exactly what Anet is constantly criticized of: not caring.

Saru The Boss · Jan 08, 2011, 06:21 PM // 18:21

/nerf please.

If you wanna use that "the game's dead let the people have their fun" excuse, Un-nerf Shadow Form, Ursan, UW, Sliver Armor, Team Arenas, XTH, and CoP.

ruk1a · Jan 08, 2011, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake Slasher

*warning secret knowledge*

Eventually it will get nerfed, and some other skill will become overpowered. OP skills keep the game interesting, QQ threads make the game live longer!
I really wonder HOW MANY PEOPLE realize the fact that anet doesn't try to fully balance the game?! Probably like 5% of the players, haha. 100 dmg to all foes in are, 5 energy, 3/4cast, 5 fckin recharge....yeah nice joke... Like they didn't know it was extremely overpowered and would be the core of some new speed clear??? -.-" So they will nerf it in time,they ARE aware of the clears and the intended OP-ness of the skill. And in that update just search for the next lol-skill and make a new thread :P
Took years to nerf SF for example, despite millions of cry threads, it's not like they will nerf it faster/slower depending on what people say here. Skill "balances" are changes to skills that will ( in their opinion) keep the most people playing the game.
Don't tell your friends though!

pretty much this and what someone else said, 4 people spamming the same elite skill will be (duh) OP and easymode but come on it's normal mode who cares everything is OP there lol

Del · Jan 08, 2011, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

The logic was "let people play how they want to". Not "unless it's effective everywhere". Beyond that, it's the same excuse again: it's not as bad. So it is a problem, it's just not big enough for people to care about until it's so bad it can't be ignored. What's ironic is that's exactly what Anet is constantly criticized of: not caring.

So you think people shouldn't be allowed to play an ineffective build? Of all the things that there are to bitch about, people are bothering to complain about bad niche builds that only get one area done, IN NORMAL MODE. Get the hell out of there with that fun police bullshit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Those things are competitive - completing the DoA is not.
Whilst better, your analogy is more akin to getting into top GvG teams.
Completing the DoA is more like getting good grades. If everyone was getting As (or whatever it is in Highschool), then clearly something is wrong.

True.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

But they are not prevented from using/participating in those things in their own way. They may not be a member of the football team, yet they can still play the same game on the same field using the same rules if they so desire. The game they play is just not on the same level of their more athletic counterparts.

It is unfortunate that the MMO genre has developed the mindset of exclusivity when its RPG forebears were created to allow players to pick and choose the level of challenge they received in order to allow them to complete all of the content, regardless of skill. Again, when we talk GW, we are talking about breaking the mold - a mainstream MMO that had no monthly fee; a free MMO that (while it now incorporates micro-transactions), does not micro-transaction you to death (nor require them to access any playable content); an MMO that was designed to appeal to the casual distinctly non-MMO playerbase; An MMO that can also be played as a single-player game.

GW may not be perfect, but it has been one damn good game and one that has bucked the trend time and again. I'm not a big multi-player gamer, but GW is the only one I have experienced that actually also created more than one level of difficulty for playing the game, in the vein of the single-player games of old. In this regard, there is no reason why GW can't buck the trend again by allowing further refinement to the difficulty level and allow players of lesser skill to experience and complete harder and Elite areas of the game.

Hanok

They're not called elite areas because they're dumbed down to the skill level of a vanquish. They're called elite areas because they take preparation and teamwork. If players don't want to actually learn how to play, or join a guild that does "elite areas" then they don't seem to care so much about the area at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saru The Boss

If you wanna use that "the game's dead let the people have their fun" excuse, Un-nerf Shadow Form, Ursan, UW, Sliver Armor, Team Arenas, XTH, and CoP.

Haha, what?

Xiaquin · Jan 08, 2011, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

So you think people shouldn't be allowed to play an ineffective build? Of all the things that there are to bitch about, people are bothering to complain about bad niche builds that only get one area done, IN NORMAL MODE. Get the hell out of there with that fun police bullshit.

If it was "ineffective" and "bad", it wouldn't be the meta, would it?

And why is normal mode an exception? Because that's for "lulz", and is already a "joke"?

The only joke is how little people actually care about balance when it comes down to brass tacks. It's just a little power creep, it's still good, it's still good!

The Baphomet · Jan 08, 2011, 09:07 PM // 21:07

iBot DwG/channeled spiking in HA once wiped altar and killed 2 entire teams of 8.
Funniest score chart ever. HUGE dip for 2 teams at once.

I don't like how they hated on channeling magic though and then buff DwG to super ridiculous damage.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 08, 2011, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

So you think people shouldn't be allowed to play an ineffective build? Of all the things that there are to bitch about, people are bothering to complain about bad niche builds that only get one area done, IN NORMAL MODE. Get the hell out of there with that fun police bullshit.

That's right, because playing games should be work, and if you're having fun, you must be doing something wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

They're not called elite areas because they're dumbed down to the skill level of a vanquish. They're called elite areas because they take preparation and teamwork. If players don't want to actually learn how to play, or join a guild that does "elite areas" then they don't seem to care so much about the area at all.

That's making an assumption based on a generalization. Again, still waiting to see that page in the handbook where it says a player must be excluded from enjoying a portion of a game as they see fit based solely on their level of skill or their motivation (or lack thereof) to improve said skill level.

There's nothing wrong with having modes that allow players of lesser skill to also experience those areas to learn and aspire to take it on at a higher difficulty level if they so choose ... and even if they don't choose. There have been many games that have done just that over the years - it's a part of the industry, and one of the things that has made it great - giving people the option to choose how to play a game, and the kind of challenge they wanted to experience. Again, GW can continue to be innovative by bucking the norm and being successful at it by making such changes that allow more players to experience all content while still offering a higher level of challenge for those who desire it.

Hanok

Xenomortis · Jan 08, 2011, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

That's making an assumption based on a generalization. Again, still waiting to see that page in the handbook where it says a player must be excluded from enjoying a portion of a game as they see fit based solely on their level of skill or their motivation (or lack thereof) to improve said skill level.

Guild Wars PvE is essentially a set of challenges for players to overcome.
If every player can overcome every challenge with ease (even in Normal Mode), then indicates a real issue.
Nothing of course, should really stop a player from attempting these challenges (hence the Normal Mode campaign is really quite easy), but teams of poor players should really be pushed to accomplish something with an "elite" tag.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 08, 2011, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Guild Wars PvE is essentially a set of challenges for players to overcome.
If every player can overcome every challenge with ease (even in Normal Mode), then indicates a real issue.
Nothing of course, should really stop a player from attempting these challenges (hence the Normal Mode campaign is really quite easy), but teams of poor players should really be pushed to accomplish something with an "elite" tag.

Why should they be pushed? Why should they have to work if they don't want to? There's enough of that going on in the real world, there's no need to have that in our fantasy worlds that we create for the very purpose of escaping the real world. I have an issue if players cannot find a large enough challenge in a game to suit their needs (if said game was not designed to specifically not offer much in the the way of challenging gameplay), but that also does not automatically mean every player who comes to the game should be required to face the same challenge desired by someone else if the game mechanics allow for more options. Changes can be made to allow players to have less of a challenge to meet in these areas without lessening the challenge that HM currently offers, yet they can still be "Elite" in terms of being harder than a normal area for these players.

Clearly, GW's mechanics can allow for multiple levels of challenges since HM came about from the desire to have a more challenging environment, as did the elites. Unfortunately, they are imperfect since the original intent of the game was to have PvP be the challenging environment, and not PvE. But these areas clearly can be too much to overcome for portion of the dedicated playerbase. Since the mechanics are already proven to exist, there's no reason why they also can't be accommodated. Perhaps many of these players simply do not have the time to dedicate to learning these areas properly; perhaps some of the players don't want to "work" to learn to become more skilled at the game, but simply want to be able to "tool" around for fun and not feel excluded for that reason. In a fantasy world designed to give us a few moments of peace from the trials of the real world, we should make every effort to be inclusive and not exclusive. At the very least, we should give the benefit of the doubt to those players who truly desire to find greater challenges in the game, but cannot because the weight of the real world does not allow for it in these areas as they are currently designed.

Hanok

UnChosen · Jan 09, 2011, 12:36 AM // 00:36

The argument of locking players out based on skills/motivation is flawed to begin with....because Guild Wars is a TEAM based game, not single player. It doesn't matter how good someone is, if the pugs that he/she plays with are not as good, then then he won't be able to complete the areas regardless. So if Anet does not even try to cater to the common denominator, then they're just gonna lock out everyone that isn't lucky enough to be in an active guild, period.

And before someone say "just get a guild, then"...let's just say finding a very active guild that do a specific elite area at the time I want is not an easy task.

Del · Jan 09, 2011, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

If it was "ineffective" and "bad", it wouldn't be the meta, would it?

And why is normal mode an exception? Because that's for "lulz", and is already a "joke"?

The only joke is how little people actually care about balance when it comes down to brass tacks. It's just a little power creep, it's still good, it's still good!

It's only good because it's simplistic enough for the common plebs to get doa done in NM. There's shit that's a lot more efficient allowing Doa to be done in a fraction of the time, and in hard mode, that no one is crying about, yet they bitch about something as weak as DwG. Why? because the profiteering douchebags want to nerf something that makes armbraces more accessible, even if it is only usful for being PUGable, rather than actually being good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

That's right, because playing games should be work, and if you're having fun, you must be doing something wrong.

You don't seem to have any idea what I was getting at with that post. I was criticizing people who bitch for nerfs to shit that isn't really strong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

That's making an assumption based on a generalization. Again, still waiting to see that page in the handbook where it says a player must be excluded from enjoying a portion of a game as they see fit based solely on their level of skill or their motivation (or lack thereof) to improve said skill level.

There's nothing wrong with having modes that allow players of lesser skill to also experience those areas to learn and aspire to take it on at a higher difficulty level if they so choose ... and even if they don't choose. There have been many games that have done just that over the years - it's a part of the industry, and one of the things that has made it great - giving people the option to choose how to play a game, and the kind of challenge they wanted to experience. Again, GW can continue to be innovative by bucking the norm and being successful at it by making such changes that allow more players to experience all content while still offering a higher level of challenge for those who desire it.

Hanok

So, what you're saying is that "elite areas" should be easy, just because casuals want to play badly and still get through this content? To be honest, elite areas aren't even difficult. PvE in general is easy. There is no excuse whatsoever to dumb it down ever further. You merely have the proper skill bars, and common sense, and the ability to not constantly do retarded shit. As it is, even a lobotomized kid with down's syndrome can do elite areas in normal mode. Thinking it should get even easier says quite a bit about you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Why should they be pushed? Why should they have to work if they don't want to? There's enough of that going on in the real world, there's no need to have that in our fantasy worlds that we create for the very purpose of escaping the real world. I have an issue if players cannot find a large enough challenge in a game to suit their needs (if said game was not designed to specifically not offer much in the the way of challenging gameplay), but that also does not automatically mean every player who comes to the game should be required to face the same challenge desired by someone else if the game mechanics allow for more options. Changes can be made to allow players to have less of a challenge to meet in these areas without lessening the challenge that HM currently offers, yet they can still be "Elite" in terms of being harder than a normal area for these players.

Clearly, GW's mechanics can allow for multiple levels of challenges since HM came about from the desire to have a more challenging environment, as did the elites. Unfortunately, they are imperfect since the original intent of the game was to have PvP be the challenging environment, and not PvE. But these areas clearly can be too much to overcome for portion of the dedicated playerbase. Since the mechanics are already proven to exist, there's no reason why they also can't be accommodated. Perhaps many of these players simply do not have the time to dedicate to learning these areas properly; perhaps some of the players don't want to "work" to learn to become more skilled at the game, but simply want to be able to "tool" around for fun and not feel excluded for that reason. In a fantasy world designed to give us a few moments of peace from the trials of the real world, we should make every effort to be inclusive and not exclusive.

Hanok

I want obby armor and chaos gloves so I can be a tool just like everyone else. Should it just be handed to me? Of course not. It's just preposterous to think that just because someone wants something it should be handed to them. The effort it takes to complete elite areas in this game is laughable. The only issue is finding people to play with, and making areas piss-easy is going to do jack shit about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

At the very least, we should give the benefit of the doubt to those players who truly desire to find greater challenges in the game, but cannot because the weight of the real world does not allow for it in these areas as they are currently designed.

Yeah, the thing to do for people seeking a greater challenge is to dumb it down to the point where it isn't a challenge, just so it's accessible to them. BRILLIANT!

Just Sai · Jan 09, 2011, 01:53 AM // 01:53

lol still qqing over this?

seriously if its too gimmicky or easy for you then go in with vengeance and flare or wtf ever your l337 status demands

how about we nerf the people who think the whole gamestate should be changed for everyone just because it does not suit them

i already posted in this thread for an alternative, nobody can or will show up so unless your in a tight group that can wax trench then its all diatribe

Xiaquin · Jan 09, 2011, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

It's only good because it's simplistic enough for the common plebs to get doa done in NM. There's shit that's a lot more efficient allowing Doa to be done in a fraction of the time, and in hard mode, that no one is crying about, yet they bitch about something as weak as DwG. Why? because the profiteering douchebags want to nerf something that makes armbraces more accessible, even if it is only usful for being PUGable, rather than actually being good.

That's nice, but I'm not one of those profiteers. I think SF, SY (and a lot of other PvE skills) and consets all need to be whacked to sane levels, but I go further. I don't make exceptions based on economics or accuse others of having ulterior motives to rationalize my opinion. People don't seem to support balance unless they, personally, are negatively affected by something, and that's as terrible as Lex Luthor taking 40 cakes.

Del · Jan 09, 2011, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I don't make exceptions based on economics or accuse others of having ulterior motives to rationalize my opinion.

Neither do I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

People don't seem to support balance unless they, personally, are negatively affected by something, and that's as terrible as Lex Luthor taking 40 cakes.

Supporting balance is one thing, but wanting to nerf something that isn't even good is another.